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Anand, did you get the cart BEFORE the horse??

Oct 23, 2008 06:40 PM
by danielhcaldwell


You write:

C.W. Leadbeater was reliable clairvoyant, most of the times.. So he
knew if the real Master visited him or just the form created by
somebody else. Suppose Blavatsky had created Master's form, or visited
herself in Master's form, C. W. Leadbeater would have known it. But as
C. W. Leadbeater considered Master's visits genuine, they are perhaps
not "forged visits", like some others might have experienced.

But Anand, I ask you to read Leadbeater's account:
...When Colonel Olcott left us [in 1885] on his tour Adyar 
[headquarters of the Theosophical Society near Madras, India] 
remained empty. . . . 

It should be understood that in those days I possessed NO CLAIRVOYANT 
FACULTY, nor had I ever regarded myself as at all sensitive.... 

One day, however, when the Master Kuthumi honoured me with a visit, 
He asked me whether I had ever attempted a certain kind of meditation 
connected with the development of the mysterious power called 
kundalini. I had of course heard of that power, but knew very little 
about it, and at any rate supposed it to be absolutely out of reach 
for Western people....

According to Leadbeater's own account, he was NOT clairvoyant at all 
when he encountered the Master KH at Adyar.

Yet you contend:

So he knew [because of his reliable clairvoyance??] if the real 
Master visited him or just the form created by somebody else. Suppose 
Blavatsky had created Master's form, or visited herself in Master's 
form, C. W. Leadbeater would have known it [because of his reliable 

Aren't you getting the cart BEFORE the horse?

How would he know anything about this form other than what the 
devious Blavatsky would want him to know?

According to his own admission, he had no clairvoyant ability 
whatsover - whether it might be reliable or unreliable.

And IF it was her modus operandi (as you have wanted us to 
consider/believe) to create the Master's form or to visit herself 
[PRETENDING] to be the Master by assuming that form, then when the 
Master appeared at Adyar, Leadbeater would have been in no better 
position to determine what this form really was or who had created 
it, than you or me.....   [Unless you are a reliable 
clairvoyant  :)  ]

As to Leadbeater's clairvoyance and the issue of how reliable or 
unreliable it was, I will address this in more detail in another 
email but for now I append BELOW a posting I wrote to Pedro some 3 
and 1/2 years ago about the reliability/unreliability of Leadbeater's 
clairvoyance on Mars and Mercury.  



Regarding Mars, Leadbeater's clairvoyant descriptions are basically 


You write:

Regarding Mars, Leadbeater's clairvoyant
descriptions are basically wrong, except for
the one that says that there is life in Mars.
At the beginning of the twentieth century it
was quite laughable to affirm that. It does
not seem that laughable now in view of expanding
scientific knowledge.


Thanks for your reply on this one topic.

I ask you and other interested persons to
reread Mr. Leadbeater's description of
Mars and its people as found at:

Here is Mr. Leadbeater in a very "matter of
fact way" describing Mars and its inhabitants.
This is Mr. Leadbeater in his best writing style....

He doesn't just say a few superfical remarks
but goes into considerable detail about Mars.

Consider one passage:

In physical appearance the Martians are not unlike ourselves, except
that they are considerably smaller. The tallest men are not above
five feet in height and the majority are two or three inches shorter.
According to our ideas they are somewhat broad in proportion, having
very great chest capacity - a fact which may possibly be due to the
rarity of the air and the consequent necessity of deep breathing in
order fully to oxygenate the blood. The whole civilised population of
Mars is one race, and there is practically no difference in features
or complexion, except that, just as among ourselves, there are
blondes and brunettes, some of the people having a faintly yellowish
skin and black hair, while the majority have yellow hair and blue or
violet eyes - somewhat Norwegian in appearance. They dress mostly in
brilliant colours, and both sexes wear an almost shapeless garment of
some very soft material which falls straight down from the shoulders
down to the feet. Generally the feet are bare, though they sometimes
use a sort of metal sandal or slipper, with a thong round the ankle.


Or take the following:

The King has under him what may be called viceroys of large
districts, and they in turn have under them governors of smaller
districts, and so on down to what would be equivalent here to the
head man of a village. All these officials are chosen by the King
from this group of specially educated children, and when the time of
his own death is considered to be approaching it is from them or from
among the already appointed officials that he chooses his successor.

Or the following:

They are very fond of flowers, of which there is a great variety, and
their towns are built on the general plan of the garden-city, the
houses usually being one-storeyed only, but built round inner
courtyards and straggling over a great deal of ground. These houses
look exteriorly as though built of coloured glass, and indeed the
material which is used is transparent, but it is somehow so fluted
that while the persons inside enjoy an almost unimpeded view of their
gardens, no one from outside can see what is going on in the house.

and on and on.................

Where and how did Mr. Leadbeater obtain this information about
Mars and its inhabitants?

He writes:

The information which I have given above is based upon OBSERVATION
and inquiry during various VISITS to the planet; yet nearly all of it
might be found in the works of various writers within the last thirty
or forty years, and in all such cases it has been impressed by
someone from Mars, although the very fact of such impression was (at
least in some cases) quite unknown to the physical writer.


Leadbeater even goes on to say:

At the present time this secret society [on Mars] is very widely
spread, and at the head of it at this moment is a pupil of ONE OF OUR 
MASTERS. Even now after all these centuries its existence is not
officially known to the authorities...


Here Leadbeater brings in the Theosophical Masters and says that
the head of this secret Martian society is a pupil of one of
"our Masters".

So if Leadbeater is "basically wrong" in his observations about
Mars, then this Martian "pupil" of the Masters must be simply
a FIGMENT of Mr. Leadbeater's mind, right?

Some might even suggest that Mr. Leadbeater's "Masters" are of the
same quality ---- that is, imaginary!!

Pedro, you write that regarding Mars, "Leadbeater's clairvoyant
descriptions are basically wrong."

Well, what about his clairvoyant descriptions of Mercury?

He writes:

Of our future home, Mercury, we know much less than of Mars, for
visits to it have been hurried and infrequent. Many people would
think it incredible that life such as ours could exist on Mercury,
with a sun that appears at least seven times as large as it does
here. The heat, however, is not at all so intense as would be

The influence of gravity both on Mars and Mercury is less than half
what it is on earth, but while on Mars I did not notice any
particular way in which advantage had been taken of this. I observed
on Mercury that the doors of the houses were quite a considerable
height from the ground, needing what for us would be a respectable
gymnastic feat to reach them, though on Mercury it is only a slight
spring which is required. All the inhabitants of that planet are from
birth possessed of etheric sight; I remember that the fact was first
brought to my notice by observing a child who was watching the
movements of some crawling creature; and I saw that when it entered
its abode he was still able to follow its movements, even when it was
deep down under the ground.

So if Mr. Leadbeater is basically wrong about Mars, then where
did all this detailed information come from?

And remember it is with the same "matter of factness" that Leadbeater
ALSO writes down his clairvoyant observations about the history of
the planet earth, about the atoms of occult chemistry, about life
after death, etc. including his descriptions of the Masters and their
places of residences.

If Leadbeater can be basically wrong in his description of Mars, if
one can conclude that he was somehow deluded by his own imagination
or psychic faculty concerning Mars, then the pressing question

how much of his other clairvoyant observations are basically wrong
and imaginary???

And notice what Madame Blavatsky writes in the second column of the
following page:

Blavatsky writes:

. . . We find in the romances as in all the so-called scientific
fictions and spiritistic revelations from moon, stars, and planets,
merely fresh combinations or modifications of the men and things, the
passions and forms of life with which we are familiar, when even on
the other planets of our own system nature and life are entirely
different from ours. Swedenborg was pre-eminent in inculcating such
an erroneous belief.

Compare and contrast HPB's statement with Mr. Leadbeater's

...yet nearly all of it [the information about the inhabitants of
Mars] might be found in the works of various writers within the last
thirty or forty years, and IN ALL CASES it has been impressed BY
SOMEONE FROM MARS, although the very fact of such impression was (at
least in some cases) quite unknown to the physical writer.

And he also writes:
Some at least of the members of the secret society [on Mars] have
learnt how to cross without great difficulty the space which
separates us from Mars, and have therefore at various times tried to
manifest themselves through mediums at spiritualist seances, or have
been able, by the methods which they have learnt, to impress their
ideas upon poets and novelists

But Madame Blavatsky wrote:

Many are the romances and tales, some purely fanciful, others
bristling with scientific knowledge, which have attempted to imagine
and describe life on other globes. But one and all, they give but
some distorted copy of the drama of life around us. It is either,
with Voltaire, the men of our own race under a microscope, or, with
de Bergerac, a graceful play of fancy and satire; but we always find
that at bottom the new world is but the one we ourselves live in. So
strong is this tendency that even great natural, though non-initiated
seers, when untrained, fall a victim to it; witness Swedenborg, who
goes so far as to dress the inhabitants of Mercury, whom he meets
with in the spirit-world, in clothes such as are worn in Europe.

It would appear that "this tendency" was strong ENOUGH in Mr.
Leadbeater also and he fell victim to it.

Would you agree with this Pedro?

More about "this tendency" can be found at:

And related issues can be found at:


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