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Re: Theos-World Say baba

Feb 26, 2008 10:07 AM
by Morten Nymann Olesen

To all readers

My views are:

Thank you for emailing the link.

I have a few comments on the file by Why Walter A. Carrithers, Jr. 

Walter A. Carrithers, Jr.  wrote:

>"Though credited with powers
of healing, “consciousness raising” and extra-sensory perception, as well as “out-of-body
projections,” the 51 year-old “miracle”-worker’s forté is “materialization,” exhibitions of which
date back to his early days of local fame when he came to be worshipped as an avatar who would
spit tiny gold lingams into the dust for his scrambling worshipers. Now his following is
international, numbered in the hundreds of thousands, multitudes of whom make dutiful
pilgrimage to Prashanti Nilayam (“the abode of highest peace which passeth understanding”),
Sai Baba’s ashram in Andhra Pradesh in southern India, where cement block houses are provided
for visiting dignitaries and the privileged among the upwards of 10,000 devotees who come for
“merit” and with hope of receiving their Savior’s “blessing.”"<

My comment:
First i would say, that one aught to be careful about just like that plastering Sai Baba with a word like "Saviour".
Sai Baba is truely teaching Adwaita Vedanta doctrines. And he often points out to anyone willing to listen,
that Atma is Brahman. he is also very clear in his remarks about, that it is important that each one of us focus
on what is God to us, and not necessarily on Sai Baba's physical body. Because God or Brahman is not this and not that
according to Sai Baba's teachings.

The fact that Sai Baba allows people to sort of worship him is due to the teachings of Bhakthi Yoga.
Sai Baba however often points out that blind faith is no good. He use various stories to explain this issue.
One of them is about when Arjuna started to have blind faith in Krishna, and where Krishna the avatar clearly tells 
Arjuna to stop having blind faith and encourage him to use common sense and higher faculties.

2. Why Sai Baba is not allowing paraspychologist to test him.
>"I believe Sri Sai Baba will be doing a great service to mankind if he does
agree to cooperate with scientists by making himself available for observation and experiment. If
he does not do this he will remain a controversial person; not a subject for scientific discussion,
but a matter of personal faith.”4"<

My comment:
Now Sai Baba have answered to this.
If he would allow himself to do too much into this direction as mentioned in the above, he would
be subject to the Law of Karma: meaning the government or other governments would arrive and stop his activities.

I remember one time when a few western paraspychologists was allowed to go for interview with Sai Baba.
Oh boy they got something to thinnk about afterwards. Sai Baba materialised various objects and some of
them on their specific request. Well, that is what the romour says.
The story is somewhere online or in one of the many hundreds of books written about Sai Baba.

I have talked with persons here in Denmark, where i live who have been for interview with Sai Baba.
One of them he offered ice cubes, which he materialised on the spot, with the temperature hovering around 40 Celcius.
If people can explain something like that I would like to know. Others have been offered ice cubes as well. This is a known fact.

Fact is, I know people can do these things. I have known about it for years.
So to me it is a quite natural issue and a biproduct of spiritual development.
So why all the fuss about Sai Baba unless, he is better than most people in doing paraspychological activitiy?

It is not the task of the theosophists to turn themselves into followers of a SPR organisation.
Our task is theosophy. Why Walter A. Carrithers, Jr. is so interested in this issue in his article, we may only wonder about.

I have talked with several persons who have visited Sai Baba. Most of them talk about, the
atmosphere of "calm", which surrounds you, when in the prescense of Sai Babba.
Sai Baba seems to emanate "calm", when he arrives. That is interesting.

M. Sufilight

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Noel vasco 
  Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 12:54 AM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Say baba

  Oh, sorry. Here it goes in pdf. I have not been able to attach it. This is the link.

  ----- Mensaje original ----
  De: MKR <>
  Enviado: sábado 23 de febrero de 2008, 21:50:23
  Asunto: Re: Theos-World Say baba

  can you re-post what walter wrote about S Baba.


  On 2/23/08, Noel vasco <nenqueteba2000@ ar> wrote:
  > Hi, all.
  > This is what Walter A. Carrithers wrote about S. Baba
  > See you
  > ----- Mensaje original ----
  > De: Frank Reitemeyer <dzyan@online. de <dzyan%40online. de>>
  > Para: theos-talk@yahoogro <theos-talk% 40yahoogroups. com>
  > Enviado: sábado 23 de febrero de 2008, 20:27:39
  > Asunto: Re: Theos-World - Fools rush in
  > Morten,
  > I think we can only agree that we not agree.
  > I wonder whether my English is too bad or yours.
  > Perhaps you are not much experienced in getting the content of a text?
  > You now quote HPB about the POSSIBLY situation of the TS in the last
  > quarter
  > of the 20th century.
  > So what?
  > Everyone, who has studied a little bit the history of the Theosophical
  > Movement, knows that the development in the 20th century was quite
  > different
  > from that picture HPB here gives.
  > The reason is that the future is not determinated, there are always at
  > least
  > two ways.
  > The majority of theosophists decided by "free will" (so to speak), not to
  > support the Masters.
  > The result was the withdrawal back of Masters work from the public (only
  > some Mahatma articles here and there in The Theosophical Forum during the
  > 1920'ies and 1930'ies), the withdrawal of the Headquarters, the withdrawal
  > of the higher degrees, the withdrawal of the messengers - end of 1942 five
  > messengers of the White Lodge were withdrawn by return because of the
  > development in the outer world. Fake messengers appear and try the lay
  > chelas. They fail, and the withdrawal continues.
  > Purucker appealed to his pupils that they take care that the link must be
  > unbroken, and if it is ever broken, they must all to recover the link.
  > Do you think the theosophist from 1945 onwards until today have stood the
  > test?
  > Have you personally stood the test?
  > I fear, most of the theosophists are too proud to think about failure and
  > Masters plan.
  > Most do not even understand, what a messenger is and how the Masters work
  > in
  > the outer world, otherwise would be not so much poppycock and cant around
  > about Masters and Mahatmas as a replacement church-Christ.
  > You intermix several things in the varoius quotes of HPB.
  > The 1975 messenger is not the messenger, which had to bring irrefutable
  > proof of the gupta vidya.
  > You would not intermix different things if you would get the idea of
  > Masters
  > work in the West.
  > That you claim not to stick on forms, alters not the fact that you seem
  > not
  > to understand this work, even when one tries to explain it to you.
  > >But of course if you are right a spiritual outpouring coming from the
  > >Masters will only affect a very few persons.
  > The problem of the great ones is, to find enough co-workers, which are
  > ready
  > by heart, that means who can think for themselves and whose word and deed
  > is
  > the same thing.
  > Theosophy is for the masses, quite clear.
  > But in the beginning of the discussion we were talking about the 20th
  > century messenger, who brought the proofs of the gupta-vidya.
  > It's not the masses, who are able to bring this proofs, because they have
  > no
  > knowledge, no training and no experience.
  > Did you know that one TS (and another non-theosophical organization in
  > Germany) had a working group, which traveled around the world to old
  > places?
  > Spirituality has also nothing to do with numbers. A strange idea. Does Sai
  > Baba say so?
  > BTW, what would be Sai Baba's proofs?
  > It's certainly not a theosophical idea and has obviously no rational
  > basis.
  > Frank
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > From: Morten Nymann Olesen
  > To: theos-talk@yahoogro
  > Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 9:07 AM
  > Subject: Re: Theos-World - Fools rush in
  > To all readers
  > My views are:
  > There is - one more - quote from HPB about what will happen in the years
  > after 1975.
  > I think with an organisation awaiting his arrival as HPB puts it in the
  > below, - one will have to stop believeing it to be the fact, that the
  > number
  > of persons involved in this are more than a few science intellectuals:
  > "...that during the last quarter of every hundred years an attempt is made
  > by those "Masters," of whom I have spoken, to help on the spiritual
  > progress
  > of Humanity in a marked and definite way. Towards the close of each
  > century
  > you will invariably find that an outpouring or upheaval of spirituality --
  > or call it mysticism if you prefer -- has taken place. Some one or more
  > persons have appeared in the world as their agents, and a greater or less
  > amount of occult knowledge and teaching has been given out. If you care to
  > do so, you can trace these movements back, century by century, as far as
  > our
  > detailed historical records extend...If the present attempt, in the form
  > of
  > our Society, succeeds better than its predecessors have done, then it will
  > be in existence as an organized, living and healthy body when the time 307
  > comes for the effort of the XXth century. The general condition of men's
  > minds and hearts will have been improved and purified by the spread of its
  > teachings, and, as I have said, their prejudices and dogmatic illusions
  > will
  > have been, to some extent at least, removed. Not only so, but besides a
  > large and accessible literature ready to men's hands, the next impulse
  > will
  > find a numerous and united body of people ready to welcome the new
  > torch-bearer of Truth. He will find the minds of men prepared for his
  > message, a language ready for him in which to clothe the new truths he
  > brings, an organization awaiting his arrival, which will remove the merely
  > mechanical, material obstacles and difficulties from his path. Think how
  > much one, to whom such an opportunity is given, could accomplish. Measure
  > it
  > by comparison with what the Theosophical Society actually has achieved in
  > the last fourteen years, without any of these advantages and surrounded by
  > hosts of hindrances which would not hamper the new leader. Consider all
  > this, and then tell me whether I am too sanguine when I say that if the
  > Theosophical Society survives and lives true to its mission, to its
  > original
  > impulses through the next hundred years? Tell me, I say, if I go too far
  > in
  > asserting that earth will be a heaven in the twenty-first century in
  > comparison with what it is now!
  > (H. P. Blavatsky's book "Key to Theosophy", s. 306-7. English edition,
  > Italics added.)
  > So HPB said in the above: "Think how much one, to whom such an opportunity
  > is given, could accomplish. Measure it by comparison with what the
  > Theosophical Society actually has achieved in the last fourteen years,
  > without any of these advantages and surrounded by hosts of hindrances
  > which
  > would not hamper the new leader."
  > So I guess I will just have to disagree with you about the importance of
  > the
  > numbers who receives the message Frank. I think it is not just me, who
  > talk
  > about it. As we can see HPB also did it. A high initiate will exactly be
  > able to deliver a message about truth and theosophy, and will be able to
  > reach thousands and tens of thousands with the proper message.
  > But of course if you are right a spiritual outpouring coming from the
  > Masters will only affect a very few persons.
  > Some how I find my self disagreeing with this view.
  > Frank wrote:
  > "You stick to much in forms rather than ideas."
  > I am afraid you misunderstand, what I am talking about.
  > I am exactly sticking to "ideas" or rather what we call "spiritual
  > impact".
  > The level of "spiritual impact" are always related to the number of
  > persons
  > affected by the impact.
  > M. Sufilight
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > From: Frank Reitemeyer
  > To: theos-talk@yahoogro
  > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 10:28 PM
  > Subject: Re: Theos-World - Fools rush in
  > Morten,
  > I will not disturb your comfort and your conviction that you are right,
  > but
  > to answer your additional question:
  > We do not talk about for how many persons the ultimate proofs were given.
  > It's just you. To me it's not important. HPB did not write about
  > quantities.
  > Important is that this proofs were given.
  > I believe this predicted proofs are connected with the guruparampara,
  > which
  > was launched by HPB.
  > You may consider the first aim of the TS: To form a nucleus, not to form a
  > crowd as much as possible.
  > As to the intellectual and spiritual level: This group of persons
  > obviously
  > cannot be very big, because most people were not fit.
  > Not even in the broad Theosophical Movement many theosophists were (and so
  > until today) ready.
  > There are lineages within the TM which would even reject that there were
  > other messengers than HPB.
  > Most people - including theosophical circles - do not even understand the
  > newspaper.
  > So what would they gain when they would hear of a knowledge far advanced
  > from their own point of view?
  > So, logically, it could only be few. Even HPB's last book of the Golden
  > rules is dedicated to the few.
  > What then about teachings which go beyond that book?
  > What does it matter, to how many people the proofs were given?
  > I think you simply did not understand my opinion about the Masters plan.
  > You stick to much in forms rather than ideas.
  > Although only few theosophists may be ready, there may be probably some
  > out
  > there who think about 2075.
  > Best
  > Frank
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > From: Morten Nymann Olesen
  > To: theos-talk@yahoogro
  > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 9:56 PM
  > Subject: Re: Theos-World - Fools rush in
  > I understand, that I was to be given such an answer to my questions.
  > I will rest in comfort, that my views are most likely true.
  > You could consider the following questions and then consider why I
  > answered
  > like I did:
  > If one is to give others irrefutable proof of Gupta Vidya, who would they
  > be?
  > How many persons are we at least talking about? And what kind of proof
  > would
  > be required so we could call it irrefutable?
  > M. Sufilight
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > From: Frank Reitemeyer
  > To: theos-talk@yahoogro
  > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 9:26 PM
  > Subject: Re: Theos-World - Fools rush in
  > 1.
  > Frank wrote:
  > "So, from the logic point of view, HPB was refering to her occult
  > successor
  > in the Tibeto-Dzyan- transmission line."
  > That is not logic. That was not what H. P. Blavatsky said.
  > H. P. Blavatsky said: "In Century the Twentieth some disciple more
  > informed,
  > and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final
  > and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya"
  > That is "irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called
  > Gupta-Vidya" .
  > This proof would be given by a disciple more informed and far better
  > fitted,
  > than who? Logically a person more informed and better fitted Than H. P.
  > Blavatsky herself. And that is why such a person much likely would be
  > known
  > to the public, and not a person whom only a very few would learn about!
  > This is a more likely view than the one you prefer to emphasise.
  > What "irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya"
  > are
  > better than to show people it all through action and to be an example to
  > tohers?
  > ------------ --------- --------- -
  > Morten,
  > yes, the disciple would be more informed and better fitted than Blavatsky,
  > therefore she could have been meant the 1975 messenger, but rather a chela
  > in the gurparampara.
  > As you can see, you have missed be point, for I was refering to that logic
  > before, the logic which you reject and at the same time you admit it.
  > But HPB never said, that and how much this disciple which would be send to
  > the West, would be known to the public. That is but your - unbased -
  > interpretation, not HPB's meaning.
  > She also says nothing about the quantity of people who could learn from
  > it.
  > That is your - unbased - interpretation, too.
  > And I am sorry to say, that HPB does not say anything about the time frame
  > she had in mind. It can be relatively few people from the time of getting
  > started, but in the course of time - and Masters think in centuries, a
  > mantra GdeP always used - after decades or centuries the quantity could
  > grow
  > much from such a nucleus. So, it's but your interpretation, too.
  > HPB writes only that this proofs will be given, she gives no time line for
  > publication. She hints rather to a time capsule.
  > ------------ --------- --------- -
  > 2.
  > Frank wrote:
  > "Sai Baba may be a fine teacher for some people, but he is certainly not
  > trained in the Dzyan school and therefore no messenger of the Dzyan and
  > Masters and Wisdom and Peace."
  > You claim a lot here. Do you know who Sathya Sai Baba is?
  > What are you basing your views in the above on?
  > Why should your view be given any validity at all?
  > ------------ --------- --------- -
  > I claim nothing. I just share my opinion with you.
  > My view has only the validity someone gives.
  > You are free to believe what you want.
  > I do the same.
  > Best
  > Frank
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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