Theos-Talk Archives (January 2008 Message tt00260)

Dear Beth

Hello, and thank you for your response and comments.

You write, "?the key word I believe, is 'experience' rather than 
mentation or thoughts which seem to be more easily conducive to ego 
or personality."

This to me is such an important distinction. The experience of being 
with things as they actually are, in the moment, without mentation, 
is a "prized possession" in most Eastern and some contemplative 
Western traditions. It forms the very basis of the philosophy of the 
mystic Jiddu Krishnamurti. It has its correspondence in the 
preliminary teachings of mahamudra and dzogchen in Tibetan Buddhism 
where the levels of egolessness and emptiness of mind or sunyata are 
experienced. 

You write, "The only way that I know of to override this process of 
mentation is thru experience gained in meditation (and even that 
should not be 'over thought').

Indeed, certain traditional meditation practices, whether silent 
(breath) or sound (mantra), passive (sitting) or active (walking) are 
renowned for approaching and becoming the aforementioned states.

Moreover, meditation is concerned with dharana or focus, the sixth 
limb of Patanjali's raja yoga system, a term used in Madame 
Blavatsky's Voice of the Silence. Dharana can be applied to any 
subject or object including an intellectual concept. It is used in 
Jnana yoga where deep contemplation can lead to a realisation of the 
profound nature of the subject. Not merely in terms of description 
but as to its essence which is indescribable.

This could be explained as using mentation or the mental process to 
go beyond itself. 

Thinking deeply and openly, without any attachment or motivation 
towards agreement or disagreement; without imposing or impressing our 
judgements, values or desires, has the potential to take us beyond 
the words into an experience of their various levels of "essence."

This to me is how the profundity of certain Theosophical writings can 
be uncovered and experienced and why "to know ourself" and our 
conscious and unconscious motivations and fancies can be so critical.

Thank you again.

Kind regards
Nigel          



--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, kolad beth <bkolad@...> wrote:
>
> 
> Hello Nigel,
> Of course you are absolutely right in regards to the personality. 
However, even with that in mind, there is value in trusting one's 
experiences, and the key word I believe, is 'experience' rather than 
mentation or thoughts which seem to be more easily conducive to ego 
or personality. The only way that I know of to override this process 
of mentation is thru experience gained in meditation (and even that 
should not be 'over thought').
> Thank you.
> B.
> ________________________________
> > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > From: nhcareyta@...
> > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 07:02:48 +0000
> > Subject: Theos-World Re: The value of "personal" experience.
> > 
> > 
> > Dear Nigel
> > 
> > Thank you for your response and encouraging words.
> > 
> > You write, "It is always worth examining the nature of these
> > experiences, especially if there is an emotional aspect attached 
to
> > the experience. Our personality loves to feel 'nice' and of
> > course 'right' about these matters."
> > 
> > These words ring very truly to me. Our personality or desire
> > driven "lower" ego, as we sometimes refer to it in Theosophy, is a
> > powerful system of energy which manifests initially as desire for
> > itself. This energy of desire which supplements and can supercede 
the
> > earlier energies of instinct, takes many forms including the 
desire
> > for security, power and pleasure. In its form as pleasure or
> > feeling "nice", this is something to which we might all readily
> > identify. In its form as security and power it can be recognisable
> > but it can also be subtle and inconspicuous to the unwary or 
unaware.
> > In these expressions the "lower" egoic personality can be largely
> > unconscious of its motivations which apparently arise, as you 
allude
> > in another posting, from skandhas and social conditioning.
> > One of the ego's "power" manifestations as you say concerns the
> > desire to be "right." A sense of being "right" can bring feelings 
of
> > security and stability to the personality. Many academics and
> > intellectuals with whom I have made acquaintance have presented 
with
> > considerable insecurities of personality. In studying a subject or
> > subjects in great depth they can be attempting to compensate for
> > these fears by being "right" with their knowledge. Some even go to
> > great lengths by finding something where they cannot be
> > proven "wrong." Atheists and cynics often fall into this 
category. I
> > once had a long conversation with a learned gentleman who saw only
> > the worst in politics. To him, all politicians were solely 
concerned
> > with power and prestige. Having worked with a number of 
politicians I
> > knew this to be only partly correct. Some were very concerned with
> > the plight of the underprivileged and worked tirelessly for them. 
To
> > this gentleman however, he believed they were assisting only for
> > their own ends. This position is, of course, unarguable. He felt 
very
> > secure in finding a position where he could not "lose." He was 
most
> > pleased when people finally recognised the futility of the 
discussion
> > with him. He rested in the "nice" and "powerful" perception of the
> > apparent security of "rightness."
> > Interestingly, fence-sitters, or those unprepared to commit to one
> > thing or another can also create elaborate systems of thought
> > guaranteed to safeguard their ego's terror of insecurity, failure 
or
> > being "wrong."
> > It seems these and many other manifestations of personality can 
arise
> > from the unresolved issues of a damaged and painful childhood and
> > early adult-hood, which to me highlights and validates your quote
> > from Socrates. Indeed, as we tread the initial stages of the
> > Theosophical spiritual path, that of ego-detachment, we can begin 
to
> > discover our "lower" ego's motivations and understand them more 
for
> > what they are. During this process we can begin to make decisions 
to
> > proceed as we consciously choose rather than simply reacting from
> > instinctual and/or often unconscious, programmed desires.
> > 
> > In saying the above, we perhaps need to take care not to over-
analyse
> > anything, including our egoic personality itself.
> > The sense of affinity you and others have mentioned can be valid 
and
> > real, as attested by countless mystics, and perhaps should be 
trusted
> > as much if not more than our simple, analytic intellect.
> > As a wise person once told me, you don't find the essence of a 
rose
> > by tearing it apart.
> > 
> > Thank you too for your recent postings. It's always valuable for 
me
> > to have more members in this group sharing their ideas and
> > perspectives.
> > 
> > Kind regards
> > Nigel
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
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