Dallas and Socrates
May 28, 2006 07:47 AM
Please do read Plato.
Then you will see Socrates deserved to be Plato's master.
You saying Socrates did not purify his lower self seems to be a strong indication that you are not familiar with Plato's Dialogues.
Socrates had frequent samadhis. And such a clarity as his can't come, as you well know, in the absence of purity in the lower self.
Please do also some reading of Xenophon -- not a Platonist -- and Xenophon's independent testimony of Socrates's great wisdom will duly impress you.
In the average, HPB's and Masters' quotations/references on Socrates confirm that impression, as anyone can see by looking at them.
Best regards, Carlos.
Data:Sun, 28 May 2006 07:25:16 -0700
Assunto:[Spam] Theos-World RE: Socrates' Higher Self or "Nous" The E S
> 5/28/2006 6:18 AM
> Dear Carlos:
> You ask in conclusion:
> " So Socrates’ Daimon was his own higher self, Monad, Atma-Buddhi.
> Let me offer the following thoughts: It seems to me in this case that the
> personality we know of historically as Socrates had not undergone the
> process of Lower-Self [Kama-Manas] purification which the "Mystery schools"
> in Plato's time still made available.
> I believe he was called "mediumistic" and was not therefore in full
> Buddhi-Manasic control of the highest aspect of his personality
> Under the rules then in force in Plato's time (those of the Mystery Schools)
> he had violated (unknowingly to himself) these by offering openly some items
> that where still most secret.
> Looking for another and more recent example of this we can find how shocked
> Subba Row was when he was asked by HPB to review and edit the first pages of
> the SECRET DOCTRINE -- copied by C. Wachtmeister and sent to him in Mss. at
> He (I conclude) must have found himself in conflict with his own pledges of
> secrecy as a Brahman. Yet it is said he had the same Guru as HPB.
> Apparently even such advanced chelas as SR have to develop and exert their
> independent Intuition over such matters .
> [ In any case, we are told that HPB had "special permission" granted to her
> to reveal facts that had hitherto been kept ESOTERIC -- see ISIS UNVEILED,
> Vol. II, p. 307 top ]
> I will offer an opinion on what happened:
> There is a hint given by HPB, as she says that starting with the E S (1888)
> a change was given to the direction of exoteric theosophical work [The
> THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY in Adyar and Olcott swayed by the Council, had rejected
> her (1885) and the Masters directions and methods.] -- and she stated later
> that she would be solely responsible for the consequences of the changes she
> would make, and yet, retain fraternal relations with the many sections and
> branches of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY every one of which she declared to be
> independent, and united under Col. Olcott, as President for Life.
> She lived for 3 years thereafter, and designated Judge (with 13 years of
> successful chelaship embodied in him) to carry on and direct the Esoteric
> Section after her passing. His ability and power in America caused the
> THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY to expand rapidly and spread to some extent Europe and
> Australia. Yet he (WQJ) was an ill person and had no desire to usurp Olcott,
> or to go to Adyar.
> Col. Olcott, though given a charter for the Esoteric Section in the East,
> chose to have nothing to do with it. A B in England and Europe, chose at
> first to fully assist judge, but then fell (under one of the 'tests' of
> chelaship, under a Brahman's dark psychic influence, and the psychic
> phenomena he produced, and the hints he advanced stating that she ought to
> begin to doubt HPB's Masters and Judge's direct connections to Them, and
> their sincerity. More confusion. A B discovered Olcott had the same kind
> of doubts. They joined forces apparently, to open the "Judge Case." .
> All the rest followed -- fired by the single fact that never can the
> "esoteric" be proved or demonstrated by the exoteric.
> No one can PROVE the esoteric to anyone else.
> Each has to discover it IN HIMSELF: ATMA-BUDDHI the IMMORTAL HIGHER SELF.
> The BUDDHI-MANAS is the MORAL INDIVIDUAL the ETERNAL Monad in incarnation.
> All the virtues have to be lived openly and observed practically.
> No personal claims have any value.
> I write the above, it being only my opinion of the matters based on facts
> Best wishes,
> -----Original Message-----
> From: carlosaveline
> Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 8:19 AM
> Subject: Socrates' Higher Self or "Nous"
> Dallas, Friends,
> H. P. Blavatsky writes in "Isis Unveiled":
> “The daemonium of Socrates was his nous [in Greek in the original], mind,
> spirit, or understanding of the divine in it. ‘The nous [in Greek in the
> original] of Socrates’, says Plutarch, ‘was pure and mixed itself with the
> body no more than necessity required.... (...) The part that is plunged into
> the body is called soul. But the incorruptible part is called the nous and
> the vulgar think it is within them, as they likewise imagine the image from
> a glass [ that is, a mirror ] to be in that glass. But the more intelligent,
> who know it to be without, call it a Daemon’ (a god, a Spirit).” (1)
> And in the “Mahatma Letters”, this statement is confirmed. Writing about
> the seventh and sixth principles of human consciousness, which form one’s
> Monad or higher self, an Adept-Teachers explains:
> “Neither Atma or Buddhi ever were within man, a little metaphisical axiom
> that you can study with advantage in Plutarch and Anaxagoras. The latter
> made his [ Greek words for ‘nous’ ] the spirit self-potent, the nous that
> alone recognized noumena whhile the former taught on the authority of Plato
> and Pythagoras that the semomnius or this nous always remained without the
> body; that it floated and overshadowed so to say the extreme part of the
> man’s head, it is only the vulgar who think it is within them.” (2)
> In the Christian tradition, the aureoles above the heads of Saints, in
> their portraits, are unconscious references to this fact. (3)
> So Socrates’ Daimon was his own higher self, Monad, Atma-Buddhi.
> Best regards, Carlos Cardoso Aveline
> (1) “Isis Unveiled”, H. P. Blavatsky, T.U.P., Pasadena, CA, USA, 1988,
> Volume II, 284-285.
> (2) “The Mahatma Letters to A. P. Sinnett”, T.U.P., Letter CXXVII, p. 455
> (Letter 72 in the chronological edition, TPH, Philippines).
> (3) About the aureoles, see “Mahatma Letters”, T.U.P., Letter XXIII-B,
> item 9. (Letter 93-B, chronological edition).
> De:"W.Dallas TenBroeck" firstname.lastname@example.org
> Data:Fri, 26 May 2006 07:59:59 -0700
> Assunto:[Spam] RE: Socrates
> > 5/26/2006 7:58 AM
> > Dear Friends:
> > Having appreciation for Ken's view (below)
> > Could these ideas also be considered?
> > INNER EGO.DOC
> > ===============
> > November 9, 2005
> > There are a number of terms used here and one ought to go to the
> > THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY to secure more accurate description of them. That is
> > the starting base we all need. Next would be to go to the SECRET DOCTRINE
> > INDEX and look up all the references that throw light on this subject. It
> > is best that each student do this work for himself -- there are no
> > "short-cuts."
> > Allow me to offer this to be checked out and considered:
> > The SPIRIT (ATMA) which is universal (as MAHATMA) already exists as a
> > in every smallest aspect of Nature and also in Man, as the ATMA [a "Ray"
> > the ABSOLUTE] is the base for the 6 + 3 other principles which extend
> > between SPIRIT and the "MATTER." of which our physical body is a
> > representative.
> > Our Consciousness is ONE. Yet it is said to pierce up and down the 7
> > of being and serves to uphold the memory of the Souls' experience on any
> > plane and in every state. The vehicle USED BY THIS One Consciousness on
> > any plane or any state of matter, depends on the effort made by the
> > Individual to refine and purify the matter that he uses there in each of
> > those states or planes.
> > It seems that our personal life always shields and secretes the moral
> > Chooser who is the eternal PERCEIVER [ATMA-BUDDHI] that resides within. It
> > is the employer of the human Mind [BUDDHI-MANAS], the Psyche [KAMA-MANAS]
> > and Astral-Physical body as its amanuensis. [And these in turn are
> > of innumerable immortal Monads, each at its appropriate position in this
> > enormous and all encompassing evolutionary scheme [ see S D I 632 ] -- a
> > scheme that is based on an individual balance point of exactitude so
> > sensitive, that any and all deviations from harmony reverberate throughout
> > the vast whole and affect the advance of all the rest.
> > If this is true, then nothing is unimportant. The "Moment of Choice" is
> > always Now, and is a moral imperative which no one can escape.
> > This is the "magic" or, the WISDOM of the esoteric or that which is called
> > "occult wisdom," and, we may try to begin to grasp some of its parameters.
> > One might consider that the real "magic" is wisdom and is obtained from
> > within, shunning any exoteric practices or "selfish black-magic"
> > By focusing on the Divine ATMA within, we allow the spirit-Life (Jiva) of
> > Divine Universal Compassion and Love to work in us and then we may diffuse
> > it amidst neighbours. kin and the rest of humankind. We may, without
> > personal expectations, serve the processes of the great Law of Karma.
> > What is TRUTH for us the "embodied minds"? Is it an endless quest ?
> > If one takes Karma and Reincarnation into account, and the concept that
> > REAL MAN is an eternal Monad, the paradox unravels.
> > An immortal being [Monad (Atma-Buddhi), such as we all are fundamentally
> > is not concerned with time -- as it uses many bodies in which to assist
> > brother Monad (as a reference source) to "perfect" its own Wisdom. This
> > it, is true independence - without losing any of its own heard-earned
> > and responsibility, it seeks to make of its organism a useful helper in
> > Nature´s continual struggle to provide an equilibrated, harmonious flow of
> > existence, and assist
> > in the process of general evolution. This is brotherhood in action.
> > It seems to be based on the free gift of mutual assistance and service. An
> > example of this kind of sublime SERVICE is offered to us to consider in
> > SECRET DOCTRINE, Vol. I, pp. 207-210. There the nature, function and
> > devotion of a Planetary Spirit is described.
> > An impersonal channel of Karma is opened by acting for a just desire, when
> > that is seen in another Yogi´s mind. No personal benefit or acquisition is
> > expected.
> > This effort marks the evolution and progress of Nature and the important
> > service that each human performs in this process.
> > Consider the task as outlined in the SECRET DOCTRINE :
> > It is the process of lifting the whole mass of "matter" up to the
> > condition, nature and stature of CONSCIOUS GOD-HOOD.
> > It is the "gift of mind" passed on by the original and primordial Dhyanis
> > to the host of Monads that are "ready." Are they thus not encouraged to
> > assume again the true "Gods" that they were before they plunged
> > voluntarily again into the experiences of diversified material existence
> > (consisting of those Monads which are now entering the period and process
> > a self-willed development of Manas) where the "maya" of illusion (desires,
> > feelings, passions - Kama makes all that is real appear evanescent and
> > seemingly incomprehensible.
> > It appears, when presented with an event or a report, we ought to ask:
> > caused this ? What Laws are involved? Why am I involved? What should be
> > the ideal reaction?" -- In other words, we have to universalize and
> > impersonalize our concepts. One of the best guides will be fund in the
> > close study of PATANJALI'S YOGA SUTRAS translated by Mr. W. Q. Judge, and
> > The VOICE OF THE SILENCE by H P B . These cause us to delve into causes.
> > Shall we say: One of the problems is now identified. How do we, as
> > embodied
> > Minds, forced to work in and use a brain of matter [living Monads], view
> > period and
> > condition of our existence beyond the birth and death of the personality
> > is now
> > living in.? It becomes clear that the Personality of this present
> > has limits to its memories and views, but no limits to its intuitive
> > potentials. These it derives from the immortal and universal fund of
> > "wisdom"
> > BUDDHI. Buddhi-Manas is then the "link."
> > We may well ask ourselves: "How did I derive the knowledge, character and
> > capacities I have surrounding me, the Perceiver and the Thinker, as my
> > abilities and disabilities? We can logically derive their source as having
> > been fashioned in previous lives.
> > Theoretically, may we consider: our INDIVIDUALITY (ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS)
> > periodically illuminates (when appealed to) with its wisdom the
> > -- when this latter seeks for DIVINE WISDOM. All true wisdom comes from
> > within. I (our INDIVIDUALITY) is one with the UNIVERSAL OCEAN of BUDDHIC
> > WISDOM which are manifesting through the great LAWS of KARMA, Evolution
> > and Eternal Life.
> > Because our embodied mind is a spark of the UNIVERSAL MIND [or MAHAT] --
> > which is an attribute of the ABSOLUTE, there are no barriers that it
> > traverse or planes that it may link to, as needed.
> > We find it taught that the records of the great Buddha's teachings show us
> > that our present limitations and incapacities are explained by the concept
> > of "universal MAYA" -- when the UNIVERSE is in its temporary phase of
> > "manifestation." The "vestures" come and go as ages of experience pass by
> > and we work in and through them - the SELF is always stable and ONE with
> > WHOLE. But why does this occur? Is not the concept of mutual assistance
> > cooperation, bathed in the light of COMPASSION ABSOLUTE, a good basic
> > reason?
> > The "maya" is dispersed by the (wisdom) innate to the BUDDHI principle
> > linked to MANAS). Every component of Nature (the UNIVERSE in
> > has this as a part of its essential constitution.
> > If we can consider using the designation Monad for these innumerable
> > constituents, and grasp the concept that they are of seven "grades" of
> > "primordial differentiation," [S D I 570-575] then the Monad that is in
> > the human stage (or grade), is at present undergoing the trials and
> > tribulations of self-mastery, self-knowledge and learning the unlimited
> > extent of its true responsibility.
> > To consider that the UNIVERSE, as radiated from the ABSOLUTE operates
> > universal, immutable and compassionate LAWS cannot be demeaning to any
> > Monad, since each is a radiation of the same qualities from that one
> > source? Is it not, for itself, in its essence, an administrator of the
> > universal impersonal and altruistic LAWS?
> > Are we not also faced with a seeming paradox, as the material of which our
> > evanescent and mayavic forms are composed are themselves Monads each in
> > own level and place of perfect need. How is this to be regulated in such
> > incomprehensibly vast SPACE where incomprehensibly small units swarm? --
> > Unless each is both a mirror of the grand WHOLE, and in itself, is a
> > UNIVERSE to still more minute forms and aspects of LIFE ?
> > It seems this ever existent balancing point of consciousness, intelligence
> > and progress synthesizes the actual work that a period of Manvantaric
> > evolution for the entire WHOLE demands. No wonder that a grasp and
> > comprehension of this as a pattern, a schema, a living WORK is startling
> > almost incomprehensible as our present brain-mind equipment is very much
> > attached to our recent personalities and their very limited experience
> > life around.
> > It seems that what we (as human minds) are discovering this fact and
> > beginning to acquire a concept of how responsible we actually are. We not
> > only receive our "karma," but as Spiritual beings, resident in material
> > forms, we are also one of the many out-posts of KARMA - and thus we
> > represent the ever-active LAW of cooperation, benevolence and BROTHERHOOD.
> > "There is only one Perceiver [ATMA-BUDDHI]; the sights are modified by the
> > channels [ principles ] through which the Perceiver looks...
> > The power of seeing is the Soul [BUDDHI-MANAS] the power of the Soul [
> > CHOICE, DISCRIMINATION, WILL ] goes into the seeing, hence what It "sees"
> > are to it real, because seen; as sights, each is a reality;
> > but the nature of the Soul is different from any and all "sights."
> > A study of the seven-fold Constitution of Man finds that there is of
> > necessity a constant definition of the relations between any one
> > and the rest, which serve in several cooperative relations to it. Some
> > duplication of references is inevitable. Interactions constantly occur.
> > The following references to Buddhi and its function as an active link
> > between Atma and Manas in man. They are Buddhi made "active." It has a
> > "passive" aspect as the `vehicle´ (sheath, kosha, sthula) of Atma, without
> > which, Atma would be forever an abstraction to matter.
> > Yet we find, HPB in the SECRET DOCTRINE, draws attention to a secondary
> > of a "desire" in the aggregation of "Matter."
> > "Kama (the Makara-ketu) is "Aja" (the unborn), and "Atma-bhu" (the
> > self-existent), and Aja is the LOGOS in the Rig-Veda, as he is shown
> > to be the first manifestation of the ONE: "Desire first arose in IT, which
> > was the germ of mind," that "which connects entity with non-entity" (or
> > Manas, the fifth, with Atma, the seventh, esoterically) say the Sages. " S
> > D II 167, Glos 170-1.
> > This might be called the first stage.
> > And we could consider the second, on the following plane of manifestation,
> > that shows Brahma (whom we select as a representative for all the other
> > first gods of the nations) as causing to issue from his body his mind-born
> > sons: "Sanandana and others," who, in the fifth "creation," and again in
> > ninth (for purposes of blind) become the Kumara. "
> > S D II 578-9
> > "Let us note one more thing in relation to the mysterious number five. It
> > symbolizes at one and the same time the Spirit of life eternal and the
> > Spirit of life and love terrestrial - in the human compound; and, it
> > includes divine and infernal magic, and the universal and the individual
> > quintessence of being. Thus, the five mystic words or vowels (vide infra)
> > uttered by Brahma at "creation," which forthwith became the Panchadasa
> > (certain Vedic hymns, attributed to that God) are in their creative and
> > magical potentiality, the white side of the black Tantrik five "makaras,"
> > the five m's. "Makara," the constellation, is a seemingly meaningless and
> > absurd name.
> > Yet, even besides its [MA] anagrammatical significance in conjunction with
> > the term "Kumara," the numerical value of its first syllable and its
> > esoteric resolution into five has a very great and occult meaning in the
> > mysteries of nature.
> > Suffice it to say, that as the sign of Makara is connected with the birth
> > the spiritual "microcosm," and the death or dissolution of the physical
> > Universe (its passage into the realm of the Spiritual) *; so the Dhyan
> > Chohans, called in India Kumara, are connected with both. Moreover, in the
> > exoteric religions, they have become the synonyms of the Angels of
> > Mara is the God of Darkness, the Fallen One, and Death +; and yet it is
> > of the names of Kama, the first god in the Vedas, the Logos, from whom
> > sprung the Kumaras, and this [ Death of every physical thing truly; but
> > is also the unconscious quickener of the birth of the Spiritual. connects
> > them still more with our "fabulous" Indian Makara, ] S D I 580-1
> > "The five words (Panchadasa) of Brahma have become with the Gnostics the
> > "Five Words" written upon the akasic (shining) garment of Jesus at his
> > glorification: the words ZAMA ZAMA OZZA PAXAMA, OZAI , translated by the
> > Orientalists "the robe, the glorious robe of my strength."
> > These words were, in their turn, the anagrammatic blind of the five mystic
> > powers represented on the robe of the "resurrected" Initiate after his
> > trial of three days' trance; the five becoming seven only after his
> > S D I 579-80
> > I hope this may be of some help,
> > Dallas
> > ================================================
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Cass Silva
> > Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 5:22 PM
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Socrates
> > Thanks Ken, I guess in the words of the master, this seals the debate. I
> > purely speculating here, but I am thinking that the spiritual test of
> > arrogance is whether or not we can silence the daemon to open up to true
> > universal knowledge. That rather than rely on our daemon, we are able to
> > source the true records in the Akashic should we decide that daemon
> > necessarily know everything. It would be a true test of humility letting
> > of a source that ensures we are more knowledgable than the bulk of
> > On Socrates (M L) :
> > "Plato was right to readmit every element of speculation which Socrates
> > discarded. The problems of universal being are not unattainable or
> > worthless if attained."
> > M L, p 400 Letter 117 Dec. 1883 from KH to Sinnett
> > "Suby Ramï¿" truly good manï¿½yet a devotee of another error. Not his
> > guruï¿½s
> > voiceï¿½his own. The voice of a pure , unselfish, earnest soul, absorbed
> > misguided, misdirected mysticism. Add to it a chronic disorder in that
> > portion of the brain which responds to clear vision and the secret is soon
> > told: that disorder was developed by forced visions; by hatha yog and
> > prolonged asceticism. S. Ram is the chief medium and at same time the
> > principal magnetic factor, who spreads his disease by
> > infection unconsciously to himself; who inoculates with his vision all the
> > other disciples. There is one general law of vision physical and mental or
> > spiritual) but there is a qualifying special law proving that all vision
> > must be determined by the quality or grade of manï¿½s spirit and soul, and
> > also by the ability to translate diverse qualities of waves of astral
> > into consciousness. There is but one general law of life, but innumerable
> > laws qualify and determine the myriad forms perceived and of sounds heard.
> > There are those who are willingly and others who are unwillingly--blind.
> > Mediums belong to the former, sensitives to the latter. Unless regularly
> > initiated and trained--concerning the spiritual insight of things and the
> > supposed revelations made unto man in all ages from Socrates down to
> > Swedenborg and "Fern"-- no self tutored seer or clairaudient ever saw or
> > heard quite correctly." M L, p.98 letter 31 Nov. 1881 Morya to
> > Sinnett
> > "Conscience, as it was already remarked may be well compared to that demon
> > whose dictates were so zealously listened to and so promptly obeyed by
> > Socrates. Like that demon, conscience may perchance tell us what we must
> > not do; yet it never guides us as to what we ought to perform, nor gives
> > any definite object to our activety. Andï¿½nothing can be more easily
> > to sleep and even completely paralyzed, that this same conscience by a
> > trained will stronger than that of its possessor."
> > p. 36 letter 11 K.H. to Hume , Dec. 1880
> > Ken
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