Theos-Talk Archives (September 2002 Message tt00156)

Wry: We have learned, in the last twenty years, that childhood sexual 
abuse is really quite common, not an oddity. 


Brian: Giving Freud's faking the "Oedipus Complex," by continuing
to attribute it to his patients it did the opposite of helping.

That is where Masson's publication of the Freud/Fliess letters
deserve credit. It uncovered a scientific fraud on the cost of one of the
most important assets in the world we have, children.

And yes true, and even when even more fraudulant then Freuds fraud, 
many people indeed firmly believe that Blavatsky materialized cups
and saucers and that the "Mahatmas" are right when they claim that 
about 80% of the world population today belong to "fallen degraded 
semblances" :

"The highest race physical intellectuality is the last sub-race of
the fifth - yourselves the white conquerors.
The majority of mankind belongs to the fallen, degraded semblances of 
humanity", and belongs to the fourth Root race, the degenerated 
Chinaman, Malayans, Mongolians, Tibetans, Javanese, , etc., etc.,
etc."
K.H. (The Mahatma Letters)

Wry: Believers will believe unless you give them something to replace
it with.

Brian: Can you demonstrate it ?

My suggestion is that coupled with its claimed "Atlantean" or 
even "Lemurian" antiqity, the idea that these teachings are mediated
by a Brotherhood of perfected men wich has watched over the unfolding 
of human evolution "from its inception," maybe has something to do with 
the belief. 


Brian

--- In theos-talk@y..., "wry" <wry1111@e...> wrote:
> Hi Brian and Everyone. Sorry, but I sent a messed-up and incomplete 
draft by mistake, so here is a better copy.
> 
> I mentioned Jeffrey Masson in a particular CONTEXT, to illustrate
a 
point, so, to go into the subject a little further: For those of you
who 
missed out on the huge flap (stink) that Masson, one little person, 
caused for an institution, that, in his opinion (and mine) had had
and 
was continuing to have a subtle, pervasive detrimental effect on
human 
society. Let me go into it a little. It has been many years since I 
examined this material, but I think my memory is pretty clear. I do
not 
know if, as you say, the institution of Freudian psychology
"withstood the 
attack from Masson." I personally believe his actions greatly
weakened 
this institution. As a direct result of an association with him, the
works of 
the German psychoanalyst, Alice Miller, such as "The Drama of the 
Gifted Child." and "Thou Shall Not Be Aware, Society's Betrayal of
the 
Child," as well as her many other books were translated into English 
and became wildly popular in the United States, which radically
affected 
people's attitudes toward child abuse and led to the taking of 
responsibility by adults. Also as a result of this flap, Masson's
intelligent, 
well written anti-therapy books, "Against Therapy," which has become
a 
classic, as well as "Final Analysis, The making and the Unmaking of a 
Psychoanalyst," "A Dark Science, Women, Sexuality, and Psychoanalysis 
in the 19th Century," as well as "The Assault on Truth, Freud's 
Suppression of the Seduction Theory," achieved great popularity and 
were read by many. I have all these books, as well as many Alice
Miller 
books in my library and recommend "Against Therapy" and "The Drama 
of the Gifted Child" as worth purchasing. "My Father's Guru" was, in
my 
opinion, an insignificant work, and I have not read his series of
books 
about animals, which followed this.
> 
> I get the feeling you have read the assessment you give of Masson
in 
a book and are simply parroting someone else's words. Maybe there is 
some truth to what Daniel has suggested. I come to this conclusion 
because there seems to be no original ideas in your message to me, 
and I also do not see what point you are attempting to make that is
of 
any generative value. I used the example of Masson to illustrate 
something about true debunking and the possibility of changing
society. 
Also, my assessment and understanding of Masson is not copied from 
someone. It is my own. (I still like your posts, though, as they are
sort of 
interesting).
> 
> "Against Therapy" received a lot of publicity due to a very
lengthy, 
much publicized trial, in which Masson sued a popular writer, Janet 
Malcolm, for some misquotes in an article she wrote about him for the 
New Yorker, which was also published in book form, "In the Freud 
Archives." This book I also own and I recommend it as an interesting 
and fun, though perhaps somewhat inaccurate read. This story, which 
tells what happened when Masson became friends with Anna Freud and 
was appointed as secretary of the Freud Archives, took place way back 
when, in the early 1980's, 1981 I believe, and you will read here
about a 
most interesting character, Peter Swales, a "follower" of the
teachings 
of Gurdjieff, and the pivotal role he played in the unfolding of this
whole 
saga by prematurely leaking to the New York Times (at what turned out 
to be perhaps exactly the right moment) Jeffrey Masson's plan to
expose 
Freud.
> 
> The teaching of Gurdjieff is in RADICAL contradiction to the
teaching 
of psychoanalysis, as Gurdjieff emphasized objective physical reality
to 
be the basis of sane, intelligent human experience, and this is a
non- 
analytical model, whereas psychoanalysis emphasizes individual 
subjective interpretation to be the basis, and is an analytical
model. The 
difference between these two is the difference between building a
house 
on sheer rock and building a house on shifting sand. 
> 
> I became interested in Masson at the time of the lawsuit and 
subsequently researched the story for a recreational pastime, but the 
reason I have chosen to put this material out here is to illustrate a
point. 
This was a situation where a disillusioned person, possibly with some 
kind of bug up his - - - - , (but(t) so what?) saw and seized an 
opportunity to do something which could potentially have a major
effect 
upon society. There is no point in going into Freud's abandonment of
the 
seduction theory here, but some of his letters relating to this were 
deliberately suppressed. This was dishonest. Some might say, "but who 
cares? Most of us are dishonest much of the time, anyway." The point
is 
that this institution was affecting human society and human
relationship 
in a way that decreased the potential for the average person to
become 
honest and perpetrated authority based on a view of reality that was 
false, as it did not connect the adult, who was physically abusing
the 
child, to the child. The onus to adjust was on the child, and this
did not 
lead to the transformation of the individual and therefore of society.
> 
> We have learned, in the last twenty years, that childhood sexual 
abuse is really quite common, not an oddity. There is now an emphasis 
on the taking of responsibility by the adult. IT IS NOT SO MUCH ABOUT 
INTERPRETATION BUT ABOUT REALITY. This shift in viewpoint has 
affected all aspects of society. This is a direct result of the work
of 
Jeffrey Masson, interconnected with some other factors, but none the 
less incremental to the shift. Psychiatry as an institution is
weakened. 
People do not place as much trust in it as previously. Therapists are
not 
respected to the degree they once were. The point is that Masson (and 
Swales) entered at a juncture that was critical. I cannot see any
real 
point in trying to debunk Madame Blavatsky. If you believe
theosophists 
have a wrong view, there are other approaches you can take, such as 
enquiry, that are more intelligent. It will not make the presses that 
Madame Blavatsky faked a psychic incident over 100 years ago. It will 
not change anything on this list either. 
> 
> Believers will believe unless you give them something to replace it 
with, but if you tell them another way is true without showing them, 
this 
is the same as authority perpetrating belief. Madame Blavatsky did
not 
cause this belief, though she may have contributed to it. There is a 
dynamic within the individual person. Unless this is explored through
an 
enquiry that is interesting to such person, there is no learning. It
is not 
about what happened before, but about what is happening within each 
of us now. Your habit of so-called debunking, in my opinion,
discourages 
the establishment of any real method by which people might come to 
verify physical reality. Such verification would take place in
present time, 
and cannot be done by looking back. Sincerely, Wry
> 
> 
> 
> 


> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]