Theos-Talk Archives (March 2001 Message tt00144)

Thanks for reviewing this.

I add a few notes below

Dal

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-----Original Message-----
From: Leo Bartoli [mailto:theosl@mail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 10:20 PM
To: Theosophy Study List
Subject: RE: theos-l digest: March 23, 2001

Hi all,
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Subject: RE: enlightenment WHAT MIGHT THEOSOPHY SAY ABOUT IT ?
From: "katinka hesselink" <katinka_hesselink@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 13:25:29 -0500
X-Message-Number: 6

Hi Dallas,

you wrote:

> As Theosophy depicts it, it seems related to a state of mind
> consciousness where one's average intelligence opens to a far
> wider, a more universal view and concept. Is it not possible
to
> say: "If there is not already something in me that is
compatible
> with a new experience, then I will not be able to understand
it.
> " In other words if there is Wisdom and true Knowledge in us
> (even if latent) we have a basis from which to understand such
an
> event. But the we would start, perhaps, by wondering who "We"
> are !

I agree that we can only know those states of consciousness that
we have
allready an inkling of an experience of, so what I am asking is
really
that each of us give a small glimmer of what they have found out
so far on
the path.

=================================

DTB	As I look at it, if we consider our nature in terms of the
7-fold constitution of Man as Theosophy teaches, we find in the
KEY, that H.P.B. has divided the Mind (Manas) into 3 activities:
1. HIGHER AND UNIVERSAL (Buddhi-Manas); 2, impartial pure
thought (Manas untouched by "desire'); and, 3. LOWER MIND that
is SELFISH, and desires eminence, control and insulation from
pain and sorrow.

To me, the Lower Mind ( KAMA-MANAS, in which our waking
consciousness is focused now ), has its moments of selfishness
and its moments of altruism. We might say that when INTUITION
penetrates to the embodied mind, it is a flash from Buddhi Manas
and the Universal LAW that Buddhi lives in. But on examination
it is difficult t insulate the higher aspect of the Lower Mind
from the effect o personal and selfish desires. It has to be
done if we are going to succeed and become "Perfect."

These are all innate to us, and Theosophy makes them plain for us
to test and adopt if true.

=============================================


> To the Higher Man, the Real Ego, [Buddhi-Manas united to ATMA]
> there are no barriers. It is the forms on this plane of our
> Kama-Manasic living that establish separateness, differences
and
> opinions. If we seize those lower-manasic images as our basis
> for life, then we do the limiting ourself. From those limits
> ensue all the many kinds of confusion (Maya).

I agree with this.

> Still others who have a deep rooted desire to "save others,"
may
> use this as a basis to start a new sect or religion -- and call
> it a "Revelation." As a result some become "convinced," and
> others remain "unconvinced." What is the actual gain in such
> cases? How are useful explanations to be arrived at ? What
> effect should an "Illumination" have on us, as embodied
> intelligences ? In my esteem, if one is not able to explain
(or
> understand) to one's self clearly such a personal event, then
it
> ought to be well guarded and not exposed to the wonder or
> skepticism of others.

How can an illumination be explained. Are you saying that being
enlightened is the same thing as having a mystical experience?

===================================

DTB	Yes and no. If we are passive then we might call it
mystical and cannot explain it. If we are active and have
wisdom, then we understand the purpose of the "vision," and
secure from it an educative value. A "mystical vision" may be
extraordinary and confused. A true Enlightening Vision is clear
definite, and contains the proof of some definite idea for which
one may have been seeking an answer. It is universal, impartial,
constructive, and educates showing the operation or the effect of
a universal Law. It inspires the Lower Mind to continue to
search and discipline itself.

Ecstasy might be a term to apply, but there seems to me to be an
element of passivity and a lack of control associated with that.
I would prefer the concept of intense active Meditation which
leads to SAMADHI. -- A CONTEMPLATION OF THE DIVINE NATURE
without ever loosing one's control over one's Lower
consciousness -- where we depend on its sensitivity to live and
function.

All progress has to be made by the embodied Monadic mind. There
is no alternative for its self-growth and experience, as it
widens out to the Universal and becomes conscious of its
Immortality and of Eternity as the "School" in which it works and
develops at its own chosen pace.

========================================

In my opinion the first is as to the second as a lamp to the sun.
I mean,
spiritual experience, especially when the mind is capable of
explaining
it, is not the essence of what was experienced. Also, it is
something very
different from being enlightened - which seems to come down to,
very
simply, being awake, or fully conscious. That is obviously very
different
from an experience of say extacy, which is what most spiritual
experiences
amount to, whether including visions or not.

But perhaps that is precisely what you were trying to say.

Katinka Hesselink

--------------------------------------------------

DTB	Yes K. I think that is an agreement, but see above
explanation also.

Best wishes

D.
LB: Anyone interested in Enlightenment would do well to read The
Conquest
of Illusion, that's what it's all about, actually, conquering or
unveiling
and abandoning our delusions about the nature of Reality; the
idea -
Universe is composed of a substance, matter - for instance. Van
der Leeuw
often calls it "entering the world of the Real". Here's a bit
from the
book:



"It is the eternal Tide of creation, the ebb and flow
of all things, not successive but simultaneous or
rather eternal; it is the eternal Heart-beat with its
diastole and systole, the eternal Breath of creation
which yet is an unchanging reality.

The experience of the Rhythm of creation is the
ultimate experience in the quest of Truth. To say that
it is great or glorious, wonderful or all-surpassing,
is but to belittle it, it cannot be compared to
anything since it is all things and there is naught
beyond it; it is without cause or purpose.
It is the Song of the Eternal of which all things,
great or small, form part, all being notes and chords
in an eternal Harmony which is ultimate Being. When
once we have entered the world of Reality and have
*been* the Rhythm of creation we know it in all
things; every object, every creature, every event now
has for us its true significance as a note in the
Symphony of creation. All things join in that eternal
Song; nothing now exists for us except as part of the
Song of creation. By itself a thing seems absurd and
without meaning as a single note would be; we now
realize that indeed there is no such thing as a
separate note in the Song or creation but only the one
comprehensive Reality in which is infinite variety, but no
separateness.

In mystical philosophy this remains the supreme
experience which yet is more than an experience, since
we *are* that which we know, and in that being are no
longer ourselves, but That which is all things. In the
realization of the Rhythm of creation all else becomes
clear to us, henceforth we see things in the light of
the Eternal, we behold them 'sub specie aeternitatis';
in the nameless Reality we know the names of all things."


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