Conversations with Krishnamurti 4/5
Jan 01, 1999 11:26 AM
by M K Ramadoss
David Walker wrote:
> Dear Friends,
> This is the fourth piece by Dr. Ruben Feldman-Gonzalez recalling
> his dialogues with Krishnamurti.
> March 30, 1980
> Ojai - California
> There may be one day of error in this date
> Ruben: Last year we couldn't talk too much. Mary
> (Zimbalist) takes good care of you. She didn't let
> me see you. Simple as that (laughing).
> Krishnamurti: I asked her to live longer than I will, so she helps
> me to take care of "the horse". They claim that I
> take care of my body as a cavalry officer takes care
> of his horse. Maria is a good officer.
> Ruben: I guess that without her it would be difficult to be
> even one minute by yourself, with so many people
> wanting to talk to you. People love you.
> Krishnamurti: No, very few want to discuss anything serious. They
> fall in love with me and want to be close, that's
> all. It's not that they love.
> Ruben: I'm glad to know Dr. David Bohm will talk with you
> and that the talks will be recorded. Please tell him
> I'd like to see him again.
> Krishnamurti: Yes, we will record our talks with Dr. Bohm. I didn't
> know what we would do in the two days in California
> this time, but seems it will happen.
> Ruben: I hope you talk about the problem of time. It was
> when I had my first contact with That, at the
> Frankfurt Airport in 1978, that I understood what is
> irrelevant time. It was the last thing I understood,
> the difference between relevant and irrelevant time.
> I think if somebody understands that difference right
> away That has to barge in.
> Krishnamurti: Quite, Dr. Gonzalez.
> Ruben: It's a pity that that "contact" is not a voluntary
> thing, because I would not like to live in any other
> way anymore. It's like healing or group-mind. It
> happens without one knowing how or why: It's perhaps
> Krishnamurti: Don't get trapped in it when it happens.
> Ruben: No, but it's fascinating.
> Krishnamurti: It would be good to have you in our dialogue with Dr.
> Bohm, somebody who knows about the brain and
> intellectual psychology.
> Ruben: Excuse me, but I'm not ready to participate in that
> dialogue. I'm going through a family crisis, my sons
> are in Argentina, and it's better not to talk about
> that. You might remember that last year, after having
> a walk with them, you told me: "Don't ask them what
> happened". That was in April 1979. Their mother left
> our house abruptly in August 79. Is all this
> irrelevant time?
> Krishnamurti: Yes, but you said you have tried the Ocean water.
> Don't avoid exposure Dr. Gonzalez. You already have
> something to say. I hope you'll participate and
> Ruben: I'm very sorry I can't do it right now. It's not that
> I don't want it or that I'm afraid. I simply can't.
> I think I'm going through a small night of the soul,
> as they used to say.
> Krishnamurti: I hope you can. Speak and expect no-thing. Don't
> expect to preserve your respectable merits, untie the
> ocean. The Ocean will flood Dr. Gonzalez. There will
> be nothing left of him.
> Ruben: I'm thinking of working only four hours a day and
> living in the desert or by the sea, far from big
> cities. I made contacts in San Luis Obispo, Santa
> Barbara (with Dr. Ben whom you know so well),
> Ventura, Hawaii, etc. I want to live simply and with
> austerity. In November 1979 I refused an offer by Dr.
> Karl Pribram at Stanford University in California, to
> work with him in brain research.
> Krishnamurti: You love and you do what you will. But austerity may
> not be simple.
> Ruben: I got rid of everything I had.
> Krishnamurti: Be careful that austerity be simple.
> Ruben: What do you mean?
> Krishnamurti: You may live in a mansion and spend the night in a
> grand hotel, as long as your future is not in your
> memory. He who dies being rich has lived in vain.
> Ruben: I agree. The doubts I have refer to the security of
> my two sons. I only don't want to have more children.
> I'm a pediatric surgeon and a pediatric neurologist--
> psychiatrist, but I don't know what to tell my
> children. The world is not fit for children.
> Krishnamurti: Be responsible with the commitments you have taken
> upon yourself, but don't worry.
> Ruben: I think my first commitment is to share the treasure
> of That when one truly lives in it. I'm spending
> everything I can spare traveling around the world and
> talking from That. That has come several times.
> Krishnamurti: Yes, you look different. Since you come from Latin
> America, why not concentrate on Latin America?
> Tickets and hotels are more and more expensive every
> day and you know how difficult it is to get a visa
> Nobody will pay your expenses from Latin American.
> Those who could pay will not listen and those who
> listen will not pay. Besides that, you need to take
> care of your health, you need exercise, Dr. Gonzalez.
> It's a problem to be in a hospital, all plans
> altered. That's what happened to me in 1977 when they
> operated upon my prostate. It was a chance to die and
> never come back, but there is a lot to do yet. You
> think it's generous to forget one's health, right?
> Ruben: (laughing) I think it's the problem of almost every
> physician, the idea that you have to take care of
> people's health and forget oneself. I was lucky to be
> born in a vegetarian home, that I never drank
> (alcohol) or used drugs or tobacco.
> Krishnamurti: Beware of your generosity, Dr. Gonzalez, the end of
> the body shouldn't be precipitated by suicide nor the
> generosity of forgetting one's own body.
> What do you do when you talk with people in Latin
> America? Have you ever tried to ask a question in a
> group for nobody to answer? See what happens.
> Ruben: I speak in Universities with professors and students.
> When riots and strikes start (which happens quite
> often due to the situation of oppression and plunder
> of which Latin America is victim) then I rent a hotel
> lecture-room, place an ad in a local paper (all quite
> expensive) and I invite the whole town, as I have
> done repeatedly in Caracas, Santiago, Buenos Aires,
> Rosario, several towns in Mexico and Lima.
> In Costa Rica there were no problems at the
> University (San Jose). Perhaps that's because Costa
> Rica has no Army.
> I speak of time and its relationship to
> consciousness, to perception. I speak of "Unitary
> Perception". Local gurus don't like me to talk
> because that's the end of their spiritual business.
> I also understand that when you told me "you talk"
> it's implicit I'm the only one responsible for what
> I say. I do not represent you nor interpret your
> Krishnamurti: Quite. Don't forget that in silence flowers an
> intuitive understanding. Do you talk of living
> orderly and peacefully and honestly? That's not so
> difficult and that's the beginning. It's important to
> emphasize a radical change in daily life. Partial
> reforms (political, economic, ideologic) are not
> Ruben: But they are urgently needed in Latin America,
> otherwise a lot of blood will be spilled.
> Krishnamurti: yes, but without a radical psychological
> transformation a partial reform will only
> procrastinate the blood spill.
> Ruben: If wars don't stop today, there will be war
> Krishnamurti: Have you been flattered or invalidated?
> Ruben: More flattered than invalidated. Both may be the
> Krishnamurti: They are both rubbish, don't you see? They have
> done it with me, all my life. To adore or to mock
> is easier than listening. You know.
> Ruben: I see it clearly. But change seems to be difficult.
> Krishnamurti: Do you know that you can help those students to
> Ruben: I hope so... but... that contradicts...
> Krishnamurti: Give them all your compassion and all your
> intelligence and even the last minute of your time
> and energy, but learn to rest in silence. You work
> too much. Listen well to each one of them. In
> intelligence and compassion you are a little sun.
> You'll give light and warmth... and some will praise
> you, or will mock you from the shadows. Some others
> will sit in the sun. (LONG PAUSE)
> Ruben: Do you think I should speak without using my name
> Krishnamurti: Dr. Gonzalez you have four names, don't confuse me
> even more with your anonymity. Do not avoid exposure.
> Don't be afraid of loosing anything. There's nothing
> to loose. You told me you're responsible for what
> you say, anonymous or not!
> Ruben: What do I do with healing?
> Krishnamurti: Healing the body is of secondary importance. Do what
> you will. But don't do it because someone wants it.
> Ruben: What do you do with the aura?
> Krishnamurti: Nothing. We have discussed this matter the first time
> we met. If you get trapped in something marvelous
> you'll not allow for the next marvelous thing to
> happen. Leave the aura alone. Leave kundalini alone.
> "That" cleanses everything. You don't need to worry.
> Ruben: Sometimes you see something unbearable in someone you
> love. What do you do?
> Krishnamurti: Do you have predilections? Or will you look for some
> reason for it? It seems unbearable to love someone
> who will not get interested in That. There is a
> brother I would like to get interested... he
> resists... but that's that.
> Ruben: The saddest thing for me is to see what human beings
> could be but are not. I would even stop watching the
> news, but it's hard.
> (LONG PAUSE)
> Krishnamurti: I watch the news sometimes, or else someone else
> summarizes them for me. The spiritual state of
> mankind is deplorable. Don't you see how urgently
> necessary your own transformation is, Dr. Gonzalez?
> Every child should travel around the world. Then they
> could cry for all mankind and they would stop
> thinking as Argentineans, Hindis, Russians, American,
> Japanese, etc.
> Ruben: Nothing seems to be enough to understand something so
> Krishnamurti: Your own total psychological transformation is
> enough. It's enough to get rid of mankind's
> consciousness. It's necessary to do so and that is
> the pure silence and the pure peace of the brain.
> But that can't be left for tomorrow, if one is
> Ruben: Silence without name.
> Krishnamurti: It's like a house which doesn't have a place for
> silence... it will be a house with a lot of activity,
> plenty of noise, but there That will not enter. There
> has to be a room in each house where the only thing
> you can do there is to be silent and nothing else.
> That room will be the flame of the house.
> Ruben: Then each home would be like a temple...
> Krishnamurti: Each home would be a home without sorrow, that is a
> good home.
> (LONG PAUSE)
> Krishnamurti: Well Dr. Gonzalez, it's time to go now. I'm sorry.
> Ruben: Krishnaji, before we go... I hope you give me the
> names of those you think have understood you best,
> even when not absolutely well. I'd like to talk with
> all of them.
> Krishnamurti: They are few, so find them and meet them. Untie
> the ocean together.
> Ruben: Thank you for all, my friend.
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