Conversations with Krishnamurti 2/5
Jan 01, 1999 11:24 AM
by M K Ramadoss
David Walker wrote:
> Dear Friends,
> This is the second piece by Dr. Ruben Feldman-Gonzalez recalling
> his dialogues with Krishnamurti.
> Untie the Ocean
> (Intimate dialogues with Krishnamurti)
> Memorized after the encounter--not recorded on audiotape
> I met Krishnamurti on March the 23rd 1975 in San Francisco,
> California. I have already written about that. My last name is
> Feldman Gonzalez but Krishnamurti addressed me only as Dr.
> March 24, 1975 (Huntington Hotel - San Francisco, California)
> Krishnamurti: Sorry, I made you wait. I was doing some Hatha Yoga.
> Ruben: No problem. Thank you for receiving me again. I would
> like to discuss the fact that you are the instructor
> of the world (or the Second Coming).
> Krishnamurti: You worry about the irrelevant.
> Ruben: It is relevant for me, because if you are the
> Instructor of the World, then I want to be an
> Krishnamurti: There are no more apostles, Dr. Gonzalez. It is of
> critical urgency that human beings change radically.
> They have to detach themselves from the content of
> mankind's consciousness, they have to live without
> touching the stream of growing vulgarity and
> violence. Egocentric activity has to end, the desire
> for profit, power and prestige. One needs to learn to
> live psychologically alone, that is to be content
> without depending on anybody or anything.
> Ruben: That they detach themselves from the content of
> mankind's consciousness?... then, how does one live?
> Krishnamurti: You don't become comatose, you don't enter into a
> drug or alcohol induced trance, you don't live in a
> state of hypnosis, nor asleep even while awake. You
> live in complete attention. Are you aware that
> observation is attention?
> Ruben: Fundamental action.
> Krishnamurti: Observation is action. To observe totally doesn't
> mean to be negligent nor socially indifferent. If
> you observe totally, each one of your actions changes
> in nature. You free yourself from the choking grip
> of traditional memory and you also start to think
> sanely and freely. So there is total observation and
> new thought and action.
> (We spent a long time in silence)
> Ruben: Are you greater than Jesus?
> Krishnamurti: Do you want me to say "yes"?
> Ruben: Tell me what do you think?
> Krishnamurti: Mankind is not the same. In the last 2000 years there
> have been three wars every year in the world and
> there has been a consequent degradation of human
> beings, the son of humanity can not be the same.
> Ruben: You are talking of the Son of Man (with capital
> letters) aren't you? You are talking of the Greek
> "uios tou antropon" (the son of man). Aren't you?
> Krishnamurti: The son of humanity is today the son of a degraded
> mankind. Then... what do you do?
> Ruben: I listen to Krishnamurti.
> Krishnamurti: For how long?
> Ruben: Until I understand and radical change occurs.
> Krishnamurti: Be a light to yourself. Stop procrastination. Throw
> away the content of consciousness. There has to be
> pure consciousness, pure awareness, pure listening.
> Ruben: When I asked you whether I could speak publicly you
> said, "you speak".
> Krishnamurti: You speak. "That" is not only for you.
> Ruben: Can you tell me more about talking to people about
> all this?
> Krishnamurti: You talk and expect no-thing.
> (LONG PAUSE) (In vital silence) Krishnamurti had said "no-thing",
> he had not said "nothing".
> Krishnamurti: It's time for lunch Dr. Gonzalez.
> March 25, 1975
> (Hotel Huntington, San Francisco, California)
> Krishnamurti: Good morning Dr. Gonzalez.
> Ruben: Good morning.
> Krishnamurti: I guess you have some questions, right?
> Ruben: You told me two days ago that you'll never die in an
> aircraft, what is it that makes you feel protected?
> Krishnamurti: That.
> Ruben: O.K. Please, tell me about That (Or the Other).
> Krishnamurti: You can see That in action, but you can't talk about
> (LONG PAUSE) (In complete silence)
> Ruben: You already know that some of my friends disappeared
> in Argentina. Sometimes I feel deep sorrow for
> Argentina and for the rest of the world. How come so
> much horror?
> Krishnamurti: You can be free of all conditioning and then you'll
> be free of sorrow. When you are not an Argentinian
> anymore you'll be able to do more for mankind and
> even for Argentina. I was born in India. I had an
> English passport. When India declared its
> independence from England I asked for an Indian
> passport. Since then I have great problems to get
> visas when I travel around, but I'm not English nor
> Hindu. I'm a human being.
> Ruben: You are a very special human being. You are easy to
> Krishnamurti: I admit I'm different, but the transformation that
> has occurred in me can occur in any other human
> being. And nobody needs Krishnmurti or Dr. Ruben for
> that radical transformation, which is so necessary,
> to occur.
> Ruben: Maybe not, but a serious dialogue helps.
> Krishnamurti: With no guru. Dialogue without gurus.
> Ruben: Could we say that you are being my guru without us
> wanting it and that I'm being your guru without it
> being my purpose?
> Krishnamurti: Then there is a serious dialogue. You and I are
> seeing together the same thing at the same time. The
> most repugnant thing is to prostrate yourself to
> another human being and adore him or her.
> (LONG PAUSE) (In vibrant silence)
> Ruben: Someone told me you sometimes even faint out of sheer
> physical pain... What is that?
> Krishnamurti: I call it "the process" but I don't understand it nor
> want to. I leave all the explanations about "the
> process", healing, and clairvoyance to doctors like
> yourself (laughing).
> Ruben: I'd like you to tell me how to heal. I mean healing
> in its pristine and complete sense.
> Krishnamurti: Again Dr. speaking (Long pause) I prepared tea for
> you the other day. You found it bitter and left it.
> I had to ask you to finish it. You still have
> predilections, Dr. Gonzalez.
> Ruben: So, to heal (with capital letters) you need to have
> no predilections.
> Krishnamurti: No, no. It's necessary not to have predilections.
> Period. If you're content for something you're not
> (LONG PAUSE)
> Ruben: Would you summarize the teaching in only one
> Krishnamurti: Attempt without effort to live with death in
> futureless silence.
> Ruben: It sounds absurd.
> Krishnamurti: Some time ago, in 1972, I spent a full morning with
> That without leaving my bed. I was completely quiet,
> before doing my Hatha yoga (only physical yoga, just
> to keep a flexible body)... that was like a flame in
> the center of immensity. And the center of immensity
> was my brain. Do you understand?
> Ruben: Yes.
> (LONG PAUSE)
> Krishnamurti: Then, what are you waiting for?
> Ruben: What? Are you by any chance saying that That is ready
> for me right now?
> Krishnamurti: That's right. But you are too sad. What a waste!
> Then, what are you waiting for?
> Ruben: I want to understand that sentence: "Die in silence
> without future". I think it would be better to say
> "attempt without effort to live in peace in
> futureless silence".
> Krishnamurti: No. Death is the end of all you are afraid to loose:
> your attachments, your memory, your disappeared
> friends, your prestige as a children's surgeon. All
> that is the content of your consciousness. Can you
> get rid of it right now, now that you're young and
> healthy and not wait for 50 years for it to crumble
> by itself? It's easy for me to die.
> Ruben: Saint Paul said: "I die every day".
> Krishnamurti: Paul said "I die every day" and Dr. Gonzalez repeats
> what Paul says and nothing at all happens.
> Ruben: You're more of a surgeon than I am.
> Krishnamurti: Dr. Gonzalez, your brain has been as it is for the
> last million years. For how long will it be like
> that? Will you go to bed tonight with that brain of
> yours as it always has been? Habit, sorrow, anger,
> Ruben: I wouldn't be here if I wanted to go to bed with this
> brain as it is. Nevertheless, I know I shouldn't
> accept what you say just blindly. I have to
> experience it. Would you be able to facilitate the
> experience of that which may transform my brain and
> my life?
> Krishnamurti: If I was so stupid as to facilitate it, then all I
> say would become a theory or a technique, like so
> many others. You have to do it yourself, Dr.
> Gonzalez. Climb to the summit and look, or do you
> prefer to go to bed and beg me to describe it to
> you? Would you be satisfied with my description?
> Then you have no substance, then you are a second-
> hand human being.
> Ruben: How does mediocrity end?
> Krishnamurti: As you get rid of the contents of human
> consciousness, will you get rid of all word?
> Ruben: Without saying "Krishnamurti is talking to me".
> Krishnamurti: Or he who listens is a "respectable Dr." You simply
> listen totally in pure silence.
> Ruben: Nevertheless, even with no words, I'll be able to
> talk meaningfully from deep silence.
> Krishnamurti: For the first time, quite sir. The word God is not
> Ruben: Will it help to stop sex with my wife? (*)
> Krishnamurti: Dr. Gonzalez, if you love, you love your wife, then
> you do what you will and there is beauty in what
> you do. Don't worry about sex, do it or don't. Now,
> let's be silent for a while because Mr. and Mrs.
> Lillifelt will be here soon. We will have to talk,
> because you know well Dr. Gonzalez, that I will not
> live forever. Perhaps ten years more and the chap
> will be gone.
> (*) The relationship with my wife ended three years later when she
> left our house, which I immediately got rid of. Ever since then I
> live in the desert without securing my future.
> The meeting followed the dialogue but I have already written about
> Krishnmurti died almost exactly ten years later.
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