Conversations with Krishnamurti 5/5
Jan 01, 1999 11:27 AM
by M K Ramadoss
Part five, the last:
David Walker wrote:
> Dear Friends,
> This is the fifth and last piece by Dr. Ruben Feldman-Gonzalez recalling
> his dialogues with Krishnamurti.
> Five Years in Ojai
> I saw Krishnamurti many times in the last five years of his life.
> I can't remember the dates well except that my meetings with him
> happened during the two or three weeks the public talks in Ojai
> were being held.
> It was clear for me that I was not going to depend on Krishnamurti
> for anything, but I still was intent in discovering "the complete
> silence of the mind".
> Whenever we met in Ojai it was with David Bohm and a small group of
> friends, or occasionally by chance close to Arya Vihar (his
> residence) or at the Oak Grove School.
> One day I told him the eternal That, the immense joyful energy...
> had "touched" me. I also told him that very soon it left me. The
> meaning of That touching me was immense, it made me very strong
> during the few big adversities of my life.
> I asked him, "Why that doesn't come more often?"
> Krishnamurti said, "What do you do with your energy?"
> I think it was in 1981 that a birthday party was organized for him
> (in May) by the people working at the four Foundations.
> Krishnamurti arrived and stood in silence for three or four
> Suddenly a gentleman with a Bostonian or perhaps English accent
> approached Krishnamurti and said: "I understand you are a Brahmin
> from India".
> Krishnamurti said, "I only have a passport from India".
> He soon left the party.
> When the last talk of 1985 ended in Ojai in May I decided I
> wouldn't attend any more Krishnamurti talks.
> Krishnamurti died in February 1986 anyway.
> It struck me, after his death, while I was listening to the last of
> his talks in England, held in 1985, that he said: "I will not use
> the word meditation anymore".
> I had asked him to do that several times.
> One day we were at an orange grove in Arya Vihar, simply enjoying
> the scent of spring in silence.
> I said, "I worry the schools are going to become elitist and that
> only the wealthy will be able to send their children to them."
> Krishnamurti said: "We have to work with what we have and we have
> to talk with the words we have. I was born in a very poor home and
> some of my brothers died from tuberculosis or malnutrition. But
> look at me! I'm doing very well, huh?"
> I said, "you were lucky you had teachers like Leadbeater who was
> even clairvoyant."
> Krishnamurti said, "Yes, I was very lucky. Leadbeater was
> temporarily clairvoyant, and I was lucky that everything he said
> entered through my right ear and left through the left."
> We were sitting with David Bohm and Krishnamurti. I told
> "From the conversations the three of us have had, including the one
> with Dr. Sheldrake, one may infer that when one human mind is
> consummate in intelligence and love, that mind will inexorably
> influence (non-verbally) in an energetic (holokinetic) way, all
> human minds at the same time.
> Now if Krishnamurti is totally transformed or consummate, how come
> one doesn't see it more in people around us or even in the whole
> How come the sorrow, the brutality, the vulgarity, the
> insensitivity of people is not reduced? Why don't we see the
> transformation more?
> At that point Krishnamurti told Dr. Bohm, "Professor Bohm, you have
> been a co-worker of Albert Einstein but even so one can still talk
> to you without a mask. (Krishnamurti smiled)... how would you
> answer to that question? Why don't we see the change?"
> Dr. Bohm meditated for a few seconds and said: "As a physicist I
> only know that 99% of all phenomena occurring in matter and energy
> are invisible."
> May 1983
> Krishnamurti had public talks in Ojai rather late in the Spring of
> I was with my two sons: Sebastian age nine and Demian age eight.
> We couldn't get a motel in Ojai. They were all full.
> We spent the nights at the Holiday Inn in Ventura right beside the
> Pacific Ocean. My sons were happy. We had the sea, and Ojai was
> only thirty minutes away by car.
> It is claimed that "Ojai" means "The Nest of God" in the local
> American-Indian tongue.
> On the morning of Saturday, May 14th, 1983 we arrived at the Oak
> Grove School in Ojai (Founded by Krishnamurti in 1974) at about
> 9:30 A.M.
> We parked the car and went for a slow walk under a sunny light-blue
> sky among the oak trees.
> There was a delightful breeze between the blue mountains and the
> There were already more than 1000 people for the lecture that would
> start two hours later.
> I met many friends from different parts of the world. We were
> elated by our mutual company and by the expectation of listening to
> Krishnamurti in person again. The blend of nature, friendship and
> the sacred is beauty itself. And that day we were deep into the
> glorious light of beauty and the rare presence of love.
> Krishnamurti talked for an hour or so about the deplorable
> spiritual state of mankind. Three thousand people listened in
> It was only Krishnamurti's voice and the breeze among the Oak
> Hundreds of birds were chirping.
> He said we have to be a light to ourselves because "there is no one
> to go to". Social and individual corruption grows.
> He said it's perfectly possible to relate without a shadow of
> At the end he shook hands with me and my two sons. "It's good to
> see you for a moment", he said.
> Demian said, "Krishnamurti has cold hands, Dad".
> I said, "Krishnamurti is eighty-eight years old, and he was talking
> for more than an hour under the trees in the breeze".
> It was during that weekend that we met at Arya Vihara in Ojai.
> There was a circle of chairs with at least ten people sitting with
> Krishnamurti. It was three or four P.M., and it was easy to lose
> track of time in that kind of atmosphere after a cup of tea.
> After Krishnamurti joined us we remained in silence.
> One had to absorb his presence before any action was possible.
> At one point he asked, "Am I a freak?"
> I said, "You may not be a freak but possibly the genetic pool you
> come from makes you definitely more able to be free from the
> influence of human memory (both individual and philogenetic). That
> has made you more able to be in total contact with reality, while
> we are at best only partially in contact with it."
> Krishnamurti said something close to the following, "We may have
> genetic differences but we are all able to 'touch' the ground or
> the totality of the mind, and that ground is the most important
> thing for human life".
> I said, "The ground being the cosmic mind or the holokinetic source
> of life...."
> Krishnamurti said, "The ground being complete silence of the mind
> (he emphasized the word 'complete'), then we can talk". He
> I said, "Is there something external that comes to us (or to
> Krishnamurti) in certain specific circumstances?
> Krishnamurti said, "It may come now when two or more meet to
> discuss seriously, which means with no wish for money or success
> and letting all the masks that protect us drop off. Water will not
> know what water is. We can only discuss what water is not. You may
> explain water well but you have to swim in the sea as well".
> I said, "We are in California. If you had to only use the words
> from the Bible how would you tell me what you just said to me?"
> Krishnamurti said: "It's revelation. Something that happens every
> time I speak. But now, since that happens, I prefer to use my own
> words which are less loaded with distortions".
> I said, "Tell us more about that."
> Krishnamurti said, "It's too big for words".
> A long silence followed. I finally asked, "what will we do, the
> ones that have tasted a few drops of that water?"
> Krishnamurti said, "Those few will have to shout from the housetops
> before it's too late for mankind".
> I told him that some people were angry at him for the way he had
> said some things.
> Many seemed unable to forgive Krishnamurti for what he had said in
> Saanen in 1980: "God is disorder and if man is God's creation, God
> has to be horrible, a monstrous entity. God must be disorder since
> we live in disorder. If he made us like He is and we are killing
> each other, then He must be monstrous".
> Krishnamurti said: "What God are we talking about? Is it the God
> that man made? Those that get angry want to substitute the
> experience of God, the man-made God. It's not so easy. That word is
> disorder, not the experience. Where the word is, experience is not.
> Where experience is, there may or may not be the word".
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