Conversations with Krishnamurti 3/5
Jan 01, 1999 11:25 AM
by M K Ramadoss
David Walker wrote:
> Dear Friends,
> This is the third piece by Dr. Ruben Feldman-Gonzalez recalling
> his dialogues with Krishnamurti.
> Brockwood Park
> June 1978
> In April 1976 I met Krishnamurti and Mrs. Zimbalist at an
> international meeting he attended with psychiatrists at the
> Carnegie Institute of Endowment in New York. It had been organized
> by Dr. David Shainberg from New York.
> The meetings were tape recorded, so I will not discuss them.
> When the last meeting ended I approached Krishnamurti as usual to
> shake his hand and make a few comments.
> This time Krishnamurti looked tired and only said a few words:
> "Did anybody listen?" Krishnamurti used to make intentional pauses
> between words. "Please see Dr. Bohm in England and then see me in
> Brockwood, as soon as you can".
> I just said goodbye. Krishnamurti was sweating and there was no joy
> on his face.
> It wasn't until June 18th 1978 that I landed at Heathrow Airport in
> London (from Miami).
> I took a bus to Woking and from there a train to Petersfield.
> Mrs. Zimbalist was waiting for me at the station in Petersfield. I
> was dressed as informally as I could, and I asked her why we were
> driving a Mercedes. She said it was a good car. I had the belief
> then that the teacher of the world should dress informally and even
> poorly and perhaps live uncomfortably.
> Looking backwards I try to understand my lack of sensitivity and I
> can only partially justify it, telling myself I was so eager to see
> the truth in Krishnamurti that I was doing at the same time
> everything possible to find out what was he hiding: either some
> esoteric teaching for the chosen few or some ugly business for some
> But there was nothing of one nor of the other.
> Krishnamurti was talking about the only thing that matters, and he
> was order, beauty, love and truth.
> Only it was too hard to believe!
> I shared meals with Krishnamurti for ten days in a row. I sat with
> him, Dr. Bohm and his wife, Mrs. Zimbalist, Mrs. Simmons and Mr.
> Narayan who was at that time Principal of the Rishi Valley School
> in India. On June 22nd and 23rd three cameras were set up to film
> the dialogues between Krishnamurti, Bohm, Narayan and Dr. Rahula,
> a Buddhist from Sri Lanka. Krishnamurti invited me to participate,
> and I, as usual, refused.
> During lunch, the following day I asked Krishnamurti what did he
> think of the Buddhist specialist.
> Krishnamurti said, "You know there are many library mouses who can
> only repeat what they read, they are unable to live what they read.
> During the whole conversation there was not one moment of insight.
> He did nothing but compare the new (what Krishnamurti says) with
> the old (Buddhism). He compares everything with Buddha, he doesn't
> want to be a Buddha."
> During one of those meals Narayan asked Krishnamurti to talk about
> Krishnamurti only said this: "What is it that continues?"
> After lunch I approached Krishnamurti who was walking alone with
> his dog Whisper under the trees.
> I told Krishnamurti I had been watching my sexual desire very
> closely the night before.
> I had been given a room where I slept by myself.
> I asked, "Is there anything one can do not to repress the desire
> and not to free it in conduct?"
> Krishnamurti said, "Be a light to yourself."
> Talking to whisper (the dog) he said: "Let's go Che-che".
> By that time one of the male students (all between 14 and 22 years
> old) had gone to the room of one of the girls.
> There was an ongoing administrative process to expel them both from
> the school.
> Krishnamurti decided he would discuss sex with the students but he
> didn't want the visiting parents who were staying in Brockwood that
> summer to participate.
> I started to leave but Krishnamurti called me: "You have to be
> present", he said. The students were angry during that meeting. One
> of them said to Krishnamurti, "You speak of freedom so much, why do
> you restrict sexual freedom in the school?"
> Krishnamurti answered: "This school is like a home for you. Why
> wouldn't you take care of the school as you would take care of your
> home? You know we are under the laws of England and that we have to
> respect the laws; otherwise, they are going to close the school."
> I met Krishnamurti soon after a series of long conversations with
> David Bohm regarding his concept of Holokinesis or holomovement.
> Krishnamurti: Did you talk to Bohm?
> Ruben: Yes. The place was small but the conversation was
> big. Dr. Bohm was patient enough to listen to all
> I had to say. He said my approach to perception
> could be very helpful for those who have the mind to
> listen. I'm trying to polish the language as much
> as I can.
> Krishnamurti: That's good, but words have to be simple. Sometimes
> I have felt like creating a new language. But one
> has to speak to those who listen, and one has to use
> the words we have.
> Ruben: Dr. Bohm agreed with me that whoever listens in
> unitary perception (holokinetic listening if you
> want) will have a changed molecular structure of the
> brain, of each neuron.
> Krishnamurti: Quite, quite.
> Ruben: That brain will make contact in a conscious way with
> what you call "the ground".
> Krishnamurti: Perhaps, yes.
> There was an art show later. I discussed "Discipline" in Brockwood
> Park with Mathew Lazarus. When I met Krishnamurti, I told him:
> Ruben: I was talking about "discipline" with one of the
> students. He said that western students define
> discipline in Brockwood as "strict". Eastern
> students consider it "loose".
> Krishnamurti: Discipline is the skill to learn.
> You either have it or you don't.
> Ruben: Krishnaji, as I told you three years ago I don't
> see much meaning in working as a physician in a
> society that is getting more and more corrupt by the
> minute. You told me in 1975 that I shouldn't quit
> psychiatry (as I quit pediatric surgery) and that I
> should change psychiatry. What I see is that it is
> difficult for people to understand the basics of the
> new psychology and the new physics and even if they
> do understand nothing seems to happen... society
> continues to be based upon war...
> Krishnamurti: Why do you separate God and work? Why can't you be
> joyful, peaceful, honest and creative in your work?
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